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Waco: The Rules of Engagement

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The Museum holds that this video is a hoax designed to mislead the public, and that the public has an overriding interest in having the full text available for examination and review, outside the bewildering soup pot of imagery presented in the video.

Part 1

-- Page 1 --

[Opening credits and audio on black]

Negotiation Tape, March 3, 1993

Children: Whaaaaaaa!

Voice: Quiet!

Jim Cavanaugh, ATF: OK.  Steve?  Nobody's comin' in there.

Steve Schneider, Davidian: OK.

Cavanaugh: You got my word, it's solid.  It's a thousand percent absolute.  OK?

Schneider: OK.  Off phone talk (unintelligible)

Schneider: David, he believes you're fixin' to hit us tonight, he says . . .

Cavanaugh: No.  We are not fixin' to hit you.  That is not true.

Schneider: (Puts phone down, talks to others in room) He says the ATF agents are pulling back and the FBI are going to be holding the perimeter.

[children crying . . . rustling sound as child picks up phone]

Child: Are you gonna come and kill me?

Cavanaugh: Hello?  Hello?  No, honey.  Nobody's gonna come and kill you.

-- Page 2 --

Child: Are you gonna come in and kill me?

Cavanaugh: No . . . no . . . nobody's comin'.


James D. Tabor, University of North Carolina, Charlotte: What is God intending to bring out of this situation?  If we do our part as His servants, the government does their part as whoever they are in the plan of God . . .  What is it that God plans to bring out of it?  That's the way they thought.

[News Conference.]

Bob Ricks, FBI Spokesman: We never went in.  We did not introduce fire into this compound.  It was not our intention that this compound be burned down.  I can't tell you the shock and the horror that all of us felt when we saw those flames coming out there.  It was, oh my God, they're killing themselves!

[Credits over headlines]

Davidian home video, Judy Schneider Koresh, killed April 19, 1993: I just hope everyone doesn't jump to making decisions before they've heard our side.  Because right now all you're hearing is the press.  We have a very perverted press.

Davidian home video, Judy Schneider: Trust God, read the Bible, know what you're talking about.  What are you doing with your life?  Is it something God approves of?  I mean, before you judge us, make sure your own life is clean . . .  We're being stripped naked . . .

[News Conference]

Bob Ricks, FBI Spokesman: We believed that this thing had to be brought to a logical conclusion at some point.  We never fired one single round of ammunition.  We were doing what we thought was best to try to prevent this tragedy from occurring.  Yes, ma'am.

[Credits over helicopter circling April 19th fire]

William H. Zeliff, Jr., US Congress, New Hampshire (R): Were there Rules of Engagement by the FBI?  What were they?

Webster Hubbell, former Associate Attorney General, Clinton Administration: Yes.  They were that they would not shoot unless someone's life was in danger.

William H. Zeliff, Jr., US Congress, New Hampshire (R): (Gavel) The Waco hearings will come to order.

-- Page 3 --

Howard Coble, US Congress, North Carolina (R): Thank you, gentlemen.  In the Fall of 1993, Treasury and Justice issued their respective reports about Waco.  And I'm paraphrasing now, but Treasury, in effect said well, ATF blew it, we were the bad guys.  Justice, on the other hand, exonerates the FBI.  Well folks, when I got those two reports, I hate to admit it, but I guess for four or five weeks in this town, if you don't develop a severe case of paranoia you're a rare bird indeed.  I thought this is all too coincidental.  One group conveniently assuming blame, the other group walks away with no blame.

Tom Lantos, US Congress, California (D): . . . this is the approach of what I call the lunatic fringe, which clings to the notion still that there was a gigantic governmental conspiracy that brought about this nightmare.  It is difficult to see how any rational human being subscribes to such a notion, but obviously, many do.

Tom Lantos, US Congress, California (D): What I am telling you is, that the most plausible single explanation for this nightmare, namely the apocalyptic vision of a criminally insane, charismatic cult leader who was hell bent on bringing about this infernal nightmare in flames and the extermination of the children, and the women and other innocents is not an explanation that should be cast aside.

David Koresh: Revelation states that Christ has the key of David, and only he can open—there's 150 Psalms here.  Some people find it amazing that I know every one of them.

News Conference:

David Troy, ATF Special Agent: . . . Vernon Howell thinks that he is the Lamb of God, when all he is a cheap thug who interprets the Bible through the barrel of a gun.

James Tabor, University of N. Carolina, Charlotte: . . . there was an element in the press conferences everyday . . . to demonize David, and it was through the language, you know, cult leader David Koresh, compound and bunker and militarize the situation so that nothing ever positive came out.  There was never any sense of telling the public . . . well, who are these people?

Davidian Home Video, Henry Family: I'm Paulina, I'm Steven, I'm . . .

Jack Harwell, Sheriff, McLennan County: We had a bunch of women, children, elderly people—they were all good, good people.  They had different beliefs from others, different beliefs than I have, maybe.  Different beliefs than you have in their way of life, especially in their religious beliefs but basically they were good people.  I was around them quite a lot, they were always nice, married, they minded their own business, they were never overbearing, they were always clean and courteous.  I liked 'em.

Davidian Home Video, Steve Schneider: And what brings you all the way from England, a nice lovely home of which I've see and been in, what brings you to America to a place called Waco, Texas or Waco, whacko, Texas.  Anybody want to speak first?

Paulina Henry, killed April 19, 1993: I've always wanted to know, to understand the Bible and I wanted to know about the Seven Seals.  And I met somebody who can show me the Seven Seals.  I asked my pastors, my ministers . . . nobody could show me and now I've found what I've been looking for.

Narration: The home video show throughout this film is the only record of the Davidians during the 51 day siege.  It was made because the FBI gave them a camera, and asked them to talk about themselves.

Dick Reavis, author, The Ashes of Waco: The FBI showed those tapes to no one.  And in its report admits it did not do that because it thought that those tapes would have won sympathy for Koresh.

James Tabor, University of N. Carolina, Charlotte: Of course the public heard of David Koresh in February of '93, but the history of the group goes back for about fifty years long before David Koresh was ever born.

The Branch Davidians are a break off from the Seventh Day Adventist Church . . . Advent meaning the second coming of Jesus . . . the Davidianism starting with a man by the name of Victor Houteff in the 1930s and 40s, believed that God had once again visited his people with a living prophet—that's the key.

-- Page 4 --

Narration: Victor Houteff claimed to be that living prophet and moved his followers to Waco, Texas from Southern California during the 1930s.

Living outside town in cottages, the Davidians studied the Bible as literal truth . . . the Book of Revelation and its cryptic Seven Seals was their focus.  Christians generally believe the Seals tell God's planned sequence of events leading to Judgment Day, and that their true meaning can only be explained by the Lamb of God, a Messiah who'll come during the last days.

Five years after Houteff's death in 1954, all Davidians gathered at Mt. Carmel.  They believed Armageddon, the Bible's predicted final battle between good and evil was close.

Davidian B&W film, 1959 Dudley Goff, Davidian Spokesman: We feel that world conditions are such in the line with prophecy that all nations are soon to gather against Jerusalem to battle; in fact, we expect that to be this Spring.

Narration: The Davidian Church almost disappeared after that.  But Ben and Lois Roden kept a small group together.  Lois led the Davidians after her husband died, and it was she who tutored young Vernon Howell as her understudy.

When Lois Roden died, a leadership conflict between Howell and her son George, dubbed the "Mad Man of Waco," split the Davidians.  The majority backed Howell.  When George chased them off at gunpoint, Howell and his followers moved to Palestine, Texas, where they lived together in busses and tents.

After an armed confrontation between the two rivals, Vernon Howell became the new Davidian leader.  George Roden was later convicted of murder in an unrelated matter.  During a pilgrimage to Israel, Howell believed God had chose him to be a contemporary Cyrus and free God's chosen people just as the ancient Persian King Cyrus had defeated the Babylonians and freed the captive Jews.  On returning to the United States, he legally changed his first name to David, honoring the Hebrew King David, and his last name to Koresh, after the Messiah Koresh mentioned in the Book of Isaiah.  Koresh is the Hebrew word for Cyrus.

James D. Tabor, University of N. Carolina, Charlotte: What he essentially claimed was not to be God or not to be Jesus Christ.  The Davidians believe that Jesus Christ is in heaven and they are Christian in the broad sense.  But he claimed to be a final Christ figure, an anointed one, where Christ really doesn't refer just to Jesus but it means someone that is chosen, or sent or anointed, he claimed to be that final one that is mentioned in the Book of Revelation, the seventh messenger, the final messenger that is to come.

And he also found himself prophesied in, throughout the Hebrew Scriptures, but particularly, the Book of Isaiah and many of the Psalms in very detailed ways . . . he would go through the Scriptures and find these references to a sinful Messiah . . . and he says, my sins are more than the hairs on my head.  Who could this be?

And see, the whole premise was, well, it has to be true, it's in the Bible.  So who is it?  It's a Messiah.  He's supposed to come in the last days, But he's sinful.

[Waco Tribune Headline, "Sinful Messiah"]

James D. Tabor: In fact, the Sinful Messiah phrase got picked up by the Waco Tribune Herald and pushed in the wrong direction.  The claim of Koresh and his followers was not go out and deliberately sin.  But precisely what was just stated, that, unlike Christ, this one will not be without sin.  He'll be an ordinary human being who does sin.

Patrick J. Leahy, US Senate, Vermont (D): Do you believe Koresh was the Messiah?

Graeme Craddock, Branch Davidian Survivor: I think he was a messiah.

[Video—Davidians constructing Mt. Carmel]

-- Page 5 --

Narration: Attracted by Koresh's Biblical teachings, new members increased the Davidians numbers.  In 1991, they recycled the lumber from the cottages and built the communal church that became familiar during the siege.  As a multiracial congregation of all ages from around the world, residents contributed both their labor, and money earned by work around Waco, to support the spiritual life of Mt. Carmel.

Russ Feingold, US Senate, Wisconsin (D): You say that many of the factors that had to be considered at Waco included the volume of weapons and explosives, the allegations of child abuse and incidence of violence in the past are generally . . . are these things generally consistent with the religious groups you've studied?

Nancy T. Ammerman, Emory University: The pattern of allegations is a very familiar one, and those allegations may or may not ever hold up once people actually go and look at the group.  And we can look at this pattern going all the way back into the 19h century; I mean the way people described what was going on inside convents sounds an awful lot like what we hear people were describing going on inside the Branch Davidians, or what people thought as was referred to earlier, about what was going on with the Mormons in their early history.  I think it's very important for us, both to take those allegations seriously in the sense of actually investigating them, but also to realize that there is this predictable pattern once a group has decided that they want to live very differently and see the rest of us wrong.  That we're also likely to respond with a variety of kinds of fears and expectations and exaggeration.

James Tabor, University of North Carolina, Charlotte: The two things about the group that created the most sensation would be the reported sexual irregularities, polygamy and so forth, underage women marrying David and the arms, of course, the firearms . . .

David Koresh, Killed April 19, 1993: . . . it makes nobody's business whether we have a gun or not at this place.  Guns are the right of Americans to have, . . . This is America.  This isn't Australia.  This is not Europe.  This is not where a country overthrows a bunch of people, takes away their weapons so the people cannot argue any issues . . . Our government's the greatest in the world.  We have freedom.  Not freedom for religion.  Not freedom for state.  But freedom for all.  You see?  And that's what a lot of people don't understand.

James Tabor: The Davidians would see theological reasons behind both, actually.

As far as the arms goes . . . what he usually quoted is a scripture from Jesus on the night of his arrest where Jesus did not resist . . .  Jesus says, my kingdom's not of this world.  If it were, my servants would fight.  A good pacifist statement that Christians have gone by for centuries.  But David would always say, let's quote the rest of the verse.  Why stop?  He goes on to say, Jesus, . . . from now on, let him who has no sword buy one.

David Koresh, Killed April 19, 1993: Did King David have swords?  Yes.  Did Jesus tell the apostles to carry a sword with you?  Yes.

James Tabor: In other words, get ready for the future.

David Koresh (singing): . . . this is for the little children, right?  God knows how it should be, stars and stripes a-flyin', give us justice and liberty, for the children's sake.  You know, you might have to bear a gun one day.

James Tabor, University of N. Carolina, Charlotte: Now, how does that translate into the communal living, even the sexual arrangements of the group?  It's still textually based . . .

Davidian home video: This is my family.  It may not be like your family . . .

James Tabor: . . . and it explains the whole Catholic teachings on celibacy, that at the time of the end . . those who have wives should live as though they have none.  That's a teaching in the New Testament.  Now when the world didn't end, the early church more or less put that on the back burner.  And those who were of the more dedicated spirit could become monks or nuns and so celibacy has always been in the background of the Christian church.  But in the early days, Jesus himself is quoted as saying that people make themselves celibate for the kingdom of God.

[Davidian home video]

-- Page 6 --

David Koresh: Our religion doesn't hurt anybody.  But if we don't follow the convictions of our own conscience in the sight of God, then we're not serving God.  And that's the way every religion should be.

James Tabor, University of N. Carolina, Charlotte: Now David Koresh himself, obviously, is not living the celibate life . . .

[Davidian home video]

David Koresh: (The family you just showed that is yours, is that family mentioned in the scriptures have anything to do with the Seven Seals?)  Steve, you answer that.  Y'all answer that.  I mean, is it my great wonderful looks something that women just can't resist?  (It has everything to do with the Seals.)

James Tabor, University of N. Carolina, Charlotte: And despite all of the sneers and snickers that that would cause on the part of the public . . . what they believed is that although celibacy is the way for the group, this figure, this final figure, has the obligation to beget twenty-four children and he has multiple wives.  It's in prophecy, in other words.  Might have been convenient, but this is what they found.

[Davidian home video]

David Koresh: A lot of beliefs may seem abnormal or strange to other people, but that doesn't mean that it's not right, though.

James D. Tabor, University of N. Carolina, Charlotte: And these twenty-four children are to become the twenty-four elders that are to rule the Earth and they found these various prophecies . . .  He would have claimed, and did claim, this had nothing to do with sensuality or sexual desire.  In fact, there is a transcript that survives . . where he apologizes to one of his wives, it's her telling the story, but he says, he apologized for becoming too human in the sexual act.  Essentially it was for procreation . . . And he believed that these children, through these selected wives, would be pure and like no children ever born . . .

[Davidian home video]

David Koresh: Our children are our product that we're offering to society.  And, you know, they're totally different from what we've seen a majority of society offers to society.  Our children know how to respect, they know how to be mindful, they know how to do right because they see it here.  They see it in their parents.  We subject ourselves to God.  We're obedient unto God.

James D. Tabor, University of N. Carolina, Charlotte: They're the beginning of the new Eden . . . They would be raised completely in the community.  They would never have eaten even the diet of the world.  The defiled world out there.  Never watched TV, never participated in all the things that he saw as a corruption of the culture.  That's how they would explain it.

[Davidian home video]

David Koresh: I think that all of you that got kids in the supermarkets that run and scream and eat all this junk food all the time and all this candy . . . I think if you look at the children, you'll see the actual product of the parent.

Narration: After the Waco disaster, Alan Stone, a Harvard professor of both law and psychiatry, was asked to serve on a United States Department of Justice panel examining law enforcement policy toward unconventional groups like the Branch Davidians, and leaders like David Koresh.

Alan A. Stone, Harvard University: I think that Koresh was not a criminal psychopathic.  He had as a youngster spent months memorizing the Bible.  And particularly these passages about the seventh seal and that sort of repetitive study, memorization, throwing yourself into that kind of disciplined project is not what sociopaths do.  And he was able to convince the other people by his knowledge of the Bible and the way he put it together—that's how he convinced people like Mr. Martin and Mr. Schneider, who were both intelligent, serious people.  Mr. Martin was a graduate of Harvard Law School.  He was one of our earliest African American graduates.  He was certainly not a weirdo, he was certainly not a criminal, he was certainly not a psychopath.  He had gone on and done religious studies after leaving Harvard Law School and had become interested in Koresh's teachings.  That is how he got into the compound.  So the idea that these people like Schneider and Martin were somehow criminal types or people who had just sort of been buffaloed by Koresh I think is a most unfortunate mis-characterization.

-- Page 7 --

James D. Tabor, University of North Carolina, Charlotte: In contrast to somebody like Jim Jones of the Jonestown disaster or even a more criminal type like Charles Manson, Koresh did not really exercise this stunning, spellbinding, mesmerizing, stare-you-down sort of approach.  Nobody you talked to of the Davidians that had survived, note of them come out talking about "O, when David spoke, I thought it was God."  That isn't how they talked.  They don't even have that sort of pious feeling about it.

David Jones, killed April 19, 1993: I mean nothing to myself.  I want to know what truth is.  And I'm searching for it.  And if he happens to be the vehicle that shows me, I thank God for it.

Karen Thurman, US Congress, Florida: Could you kind of describe for us how your findings differ from the rest of the reports, the reporters who have covered the story?

Dick J. Reavis, author of The Ashes of Waco: First of all I want to say thanks for reading my book.

Karen Thurman, US Congress, Florida: Well, you're welcome.  It's my job.

Dick J. Reavis, author, The Ashes of Waco: . . . The biggest surprise I encountered in writing this book is that I had no competitors.  And naturally, my conclusions differ, or my questions differ because I learned a lot more than they did because they abandoned the story when the building burned down . . . in general this represents a major failure of the press in our country.

One of the prophecies that has been around Mt. Carmel since 1934 called for an ultimate confrontation between God's people, or those at Mr. Carmel, and the forces of an armed apostate power called Babylon . . . Perhaps with that in mind, in 1991, he began studying armaments and buying and selling guns.  He pretty quickly found out there is a lot of money to be made at gun shows and he and other people started going to gun shows.  And they bought and sold.  They bought items that weren't guns, and they bought items that were guns We now say, or the press now says, most people say, they stockpiled weapons.  All gun dealers stockpile weapons.  We call those stockpiles an inventory.  There was an inventory of weapons at Mt. Carmel.  A number of guys were involved in the gun shows, just as a number were involved in souping up and restoring cars, and just as a number were involved in playing in the band.  There were circles or knots or subsets of people who had hobby interests that were only indirectly related to theology, and guns were one of those interests.

David Thibodeau, Branch Davidian Survivor: . . . there were a lot of individuals that had their own firearms, and there were, you know, quite an amount of firearms.  But being in Texas, you know, we had people come out to the community, out to our property, and shoot with us on our firing range . . . you know, some of our neighbors had, I talked to, themselves, they had like 10, 12 guns just in their little family.  You know so, I just call it the good old boy syndrome, the little boy, you know, kind of mentality down in Texas and its a Constitutional right, it's not, you know, evil or demonized.

John Conyers, Jr., US Congress, Michigan (D): . . . did you state in your book, at page 122, that you thought that the ATF was seeking to enforce unconstitutional fire arms laws?

Dick J. Reavis, author, The Ashes of Waco: . . . I found a scholar who studied the constitutional history of fire arms laws and whose opinion is that they may not be constitutional . . . I was quite impressed to find out that that argument could be made and I thought readers deserved a chance to see it.

John Conyers, Jr., US Congress, Michigan (D): Well, now that you've studied and written and promoted it, what do you think now?

Dick J. Reavis, author, The Ashes of Waco: Whether or not they're constitutional?

John Conyers, Jr., US Congress, Michigan (D): Aren't you worried about that, yeah whether they're constitutional?

Dick J. Reavis: If the findings of these professors are trustworthy, that is a question to be litigated in the courts.

John Conyers, Jr., US Congress, Michigan (D): I get it, I understand you've learned a lot since you wrote the book.  That's what I'm beginning to understand . . . I mean its nice to write a book about what may or may not be constitutional or unconstitutional but yet when you come here to testify, well there is no question now that you've thought about it this is not so unconstitutional as you would have thought.  [Reavis tries to interrupt] Now just a moment.  I didn't ask you a question.

-- Page 8 --

Howard Coble, US Congress, N. Carolina (R): Mr. Chairman, I think that it is incumbent upon all of us to extend courtesy to these witnesses and I don't see what harm would result or ensue if the gentleman were allowed to explain perhaps a response he didn't get a chance to do.

Dick Reavis, author, The Ashes of Waco: I think we have to distinguish between illegality and constitutionality . . . Whether or not the arms laws are constitutional will be, at this point, what the courts say they are.  Tomorrow they may say different because of the research I cite in my book.

Karen Thurman, US Congress, Florida (D): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  At this time, I believe that all of you have some testimony in front of you from Kiri Jewell.  I'm going to ask for part of my time for her, to have the opportunity to read into the record her particular testimony and then we can proceed from there.  Kiri, welcome, and thank you for being here.  You can begin.

Kiri Jewell, former Branch Davidian: I was brushing my hair, sitting in a chair and David took me, told me to come sit by him on the bed.  I was wearing a long white tee shirt and panties.  He kissed me and sat there, but then he laid me down.  Then he took his penis . . .


Steven Schiff, US Congress, New Mexico (R): Thank you, Mr. Chairman for yielding.  Mr. Chairman . . . I would point out that the headlines in a Washington daily paper this morning read: Teenager Tells Waco Panel of Koresh's Lust.  This is a Washington daily paper.  I can't imagine how the tabloids are going to top that particular headline.

William H. Zeliff, Jr., US Congress, New Hampshire (R): I'd like to introduce the biographies of the panel.  Dick DeGuerin is a widely recognized defense attorney in the state of Texas.  He represented David Koresh and entered the compound during the siege.  I would also like to introduce Mr. Jack Zimmerman, also a well known and respected attorney.  Happens to be a new grandfather within the last few hours.  We appreciate your being here.  You represented Steve Schneider.  He also gathered first hand evidence upon entering the compound during the siege.  In addition to being a defense attorney, Mr. Zimmermann is a Colonel in the United States Marine Corps Reserve.  He practices as a military judge.  Two very credible witnesses, welcome.

Dick DeGuerin, attorney for David Koresh: This was not a bunch of people who'd been hypnotized.  These people that I saw— and I met almost everybody in there that died in that fire—these people believed . . . some people had been there as long as forty years.  Some people had been born and raised there.  They were there because they believed in a vision of the Bible that was unusual.  I don't understand it . . . But it was real.  You can't legislate away that.  In fact, the First Amendment says we can't do anything about that.

Tom Lantos, US Congress, California (D): You are saying, Mr. DeGuerin, I saw in David Koresh, not a person who was insane, but a person who was deeply committed and sincere about his religious beliefs.  Well, I am sorry for you if that's what you see in him.

Charles E. Schumer, US Congress, New York (D): Do you doubt the testimony of Kiri Jewell?  Did you hear about that?

Dick DeGuerin, attorney for David Koresh: Yes, I did.

Charles E. Schumer, US Congress, New York (D): You doubt that?

Dick DeGuerin, attorney for David Koresh: Yes.

Charles E. Schumer, US Congress, New York (D): Do you doubt that, Mr. Zimmerman?

Jack Zimmerman, attorney for Steve Schneider: Yes, sir.  Do you know why?

-- Page 9 --

Charles E. Schumer, US Congress, New York (D): Yeah, you can tell me why.

Jack Zimmerman, attorney for Steve Schneider: We didn't learn of that the first time until she testified at this hearing.  She, she's . . . that of kind of claim that has been made for some time.  Her own mother didn't believe that.

Charles E. Schumer, US Congress, New York (D): Right.

Jack Zimmerman, attorney for Steve Schneider: There's been doubts about contradictory statements that she's made in the past.  Now, it may be 100 percent true.

Charles E. Schumer, US Congress, New York (D): You're wasting my time.  My time is up.  In my judgment, in many ways, these witnesses are trying to deny things that just about everybody else accepts as fact about David Koresh.

Jack Harwell, Sheriff, McLennan County: To this day, we don't have a case that we can make against Vernon Howell or anyone else for child abuse even though the news media here and other people were saying this is what happened.  A man from Australia said this is what happened.  But we can never get them to give us anything more that just "we know that's what happened."  You have to have proof to go into court . . .

Keep in mind, too, that most of the girls who were involved were at least 14 years old and 14 year olds get married with parental consent.  So if their parents were there and letting things happen in the way of sexual activities and what have you with their 14 year old kids, you have common law husbands and wives.  Uh, I don't say that I agree with that and that I approve of it.  But at the same time, if parents are there and they're giving parental consent, we have a problem with that in making a case.

Dick J. Reavis, author, The Ashes of Waco: My investigations convinced me that David Koresh was guilty of statutory rape, but I don't understand why two-thirds of the search warrant was about child abuse and statutory rape when the ATF has no jurisdiction over those offenses.

Steven Schiff, US Congress, New Mexico (R): Gentlemen, I've been very critical of the presentation earlier of the victimization of Kiri Jewel.  Because as serious as child rape is, of course, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms was conducting a firearms law investigation and search.  And the issue of Mr. Koresh's depravity is not what they were investigating or were going to serve a search warrant for.  And I think that that testimony was put into this haring to take newspaper headlines and other media attention away from a lot of the testimony about the law enforcement participation in the raid.

Chuck Sarabyn, ATF Special Agent: We determined that at the compound, machine guns were being manufactured and explosive devices.  Our goal through this investigation was to execute a search warrant on that house to obtain those illegal weapons.

H. Geoffrey Molten, Jr.: In addition, it had reason to believe that Koresh and his followers might pose a danger not only to themselves but to the surrounding community.

Nancy Ammerman, Emory University: . . . I think in the case of the Davidians, if people had listened to their rhetoric, with an ear toward an understanding of religious apocalyptic language, they would probably not have been worried about them using these weapons against their neighbors.

Dick Reavis, author, The Ashes of Waco: . . . what the search warrant found was gun parts, legal gun parts . . .  It was the duty of the ATF to show that those gun parts were owned with an intent to create illegal weapons I'm not a lawyer or a judge, but my reading of the warrant doesn't convince me that that intent was there.

Charles E. Schumer, US Congress, New York (D): Do you say its not been proven there were 48 illegal machine guns and a bunch of illegal hand grenades on his compound?

Jack Zimmerman, attorney for Steve Schneider: I believe that there were 48 illegal automatic weapons on April 19th.  I don't know that that's the case on February 28th, sir.

-- Page 10 --

Charles E. Schumer, US Congress, New York (D): How about hand grenades?

Jack Zimmerman, attorney for Steve Schneider: I don't know.  I don't recall that.

Charles E. Schumer, US Congress, New York (D): Do you recall, Mr. DeGuerin?

Dick DeGuerin, attorney for David Koresh: No, I don't know . . .

Charles E. Schumer, US Congress, New York (D): Even though you know every other detail about the trial.

Dick DeGuerin, attorney for David Koresh: That's not fair, Mr. Schumer.

Charles E. Schumer, US Congress, New York (D): You doubt that . . I'm asking you right now, sir.

Dick DeGuerin, attorney for David Koresh: What is your question?

Charles E. Schumer, US Congress, New York (D): My question is, do you doubt, do you have doubts that Mr. Koresh had on his compound illegal weapons and illegal hand grenades?  Do you have any doubts about that?

Dick DeGuerin, attorney for David Koresh: No.  He told me had illegal weapons there.  He did not tell me had hand grenades there.

Charles E. Schumer, US Congress, New York (D): I see.

Dick DeGuerin, attorney for David Koresh: And I saw no hand grenades, I did see some grenades that the ATF had thrown in and I brought one out . . .

Charles E. Schumer, US Congress, New York (D): What do you mean thrown in?

Dick DeGuerin, attorney for David Koresh: The ATF threw in grenades in their dynamic entry . . .

Charles E. Schumer, US Congress, New York (D): They threw no grenades.

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