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David Koresh & The Cuckoo's Egg Interview with Andrew X98
What with news suppression and ridicule, See companion pieces: |
| This photo of David Koresh and Clive Doyle appears in A Place Called Waco (Thibodeau and Whiteson, PublicAffairs, 1999, p. 174-5). The origin of this photo is in doubt. |
CAVEAT
Some of you may find this material hard to read. I found it hard to write.
Each of us have fundamental beliefs which inspire our actions, dictate our opinions and reactions, filter the chaos of life, and organize that chaos into meaningful experiences. These beliefs can be called one's worldview.
As an agnostic and a rationalist, I have never been interested in the religion of the Branch Davidians. I believed that to delve into David Koresh's teachings was a diversion and that our focus should be on the principles of the Bill of Rights and prosecution of the murderers.
But in September 1999, I started to correspond with a man whose worldview was quite different from mine. His name was Andrew X98, and he was living in Waco, studying the teachings of David Koresh.
Over time, he had became convinced that some so-called Davidians were actively helping the government get away with the murders of Koresh and his followers. I have long ago come to this conclusion myself, on the basis of forensic evidence and Davidian testimony. However, my e-mail correspondent came to his conclusions as a result of studying Koresh's religious message, and seeing how that message was being altered and suppressed by those claiming to be his followers.
Religious leaders influence the actions and opinions of many; they can help the state solidify its power, or can undermine that power. Thus governments have a vital interest in monitoring religious leaders and their followers, and molding religious doctrines.
When priests, preachers, and prophets get too independent and their teachings go beyond what the state will tolerate, those leaders become enemies of the state. It is then in the interests of the state to snuff them out.
It is possible that David Koresh may have been such a leader. What was so controversial about Koresh's teachings? Among other things, Koresh was teaching that Bible prophecies would be fulfilled in a land other than Israel. He was teaching that a Savior would come from Iran. He was teaching doctrines that paralleled the teachings of Mohammed. In these things, David Koresh's theology must have been dangerous to certain vested interests.
"David Koresh And The Cuckoo's Egg" is the result of a series of conversations with Andrew X98. Of necessity, this interview gives details of David Koresh's teachings and prophecies. Some of these ideas might fly in the face of your own beliefs. You may become angry.
A friend of mine, a member of a traditional Christian faith, did me the favor of proofreading this interview. After he read it, he confessed that he was revolted by Koresh's assertion that he was a prophet of God. Prophets were long since dead and don't come any more, my traditional friend said.
This set my agnostic mind to work: Why would God decide not to send prophets anymore? Surely a religion that would not admit the possibility of present time prophets was a religion that had atrophied. I questioned my friend. He admitted he could think of no "good reason" God, in all His wisdom and mercy, would cut modern man off. My friend was willing to accommodate another view, and consider the information contained herein.
So, too, I had to accommodate a view other than my own in order to conduct this interview. In the interest of free inquiry into the circumstances surrounding the death of David Koresh and his followers, I was forced to put many of my own prejudices aside.
I invite you to open your mind and read "David Koresh And The Cuckoo's Egg."
A discussion of this article will be held on the KoreshX98 discussion group. View webpage and message archive at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Koresh_X98 To subscribe write to:KORESH_X98-subscribe@yahoogroups.com For your convenience, here is the URL of a well-known on-line concordance which you may wish to use when reading this interview.
http://bible.crosswalk.com/-CV
When she's ready to lay an egg, the cuckoo bird finds a nest of another species, lays her own egg in the nest, and leaves. The owners of the nest return and unwittingly hatch the impostor egg and feed the nestling cuckoo.
WACO-Branch Davidians believed sect leader David Koresh was a manifestation of "God made flesh," and if God asked someone to do something, it would not be considered a sin, a survivor of the 1993 siege testified Wednesday. "We gave ourselves, totally, to God," sect member Clive Doyle testified. "We believe that God was speaking through [David Koresh] ..." — Plaintiff testifies in Waco trial by Sherri Chunn, Associated Press, June 29, 2000.
April 19, 2001—Four and a half years ago, in October 1996 a man living in Philadelphia made a decision to start a new life and devote himself to finding God. He left all that was familiar behind including his friends, a comfortable home, a big library, and even his old name. His trip took him to Waco, Texas, to seek out Clive Doyle, the man reputed to be David Koresh's disciple.
But after three and a half years of intensive study, this man, who now calls himself Andrew X98, has come to the conclusion that:
"By his own admission, Clive knows nothing of David's fundamental ideas. He
does not follow David's theology. For example, in 1991 David realized that it
was here in America he and his followers would be killed by the King of the North
— the US government. When I asked Clive why David reached this conclusion,
Clive had no idea. David also said that 1290 days after his death, the
Abomination That Maketh Desolate would be set up. When I asked Clive what the
Abomination was, he was clueless about that too.
"Clive says he is not the leader of the Branch Davidians. True. Clive is the substitute leader — the government murdered the real leader and gave us Clive in his place. Clive is the cuckoo's egg, an impostor. He is a key player in the cover-up of the Waco Holocaust."
CV:
Tell us a little about yourself ...
X98:
Right now I live in Waco and run the KoreshX-98 e-mail discussion list. The
focus is discussion of the teachings of David Koresh and how these teachings led to
his death and the deaths of his followers. We're interested in exposing the
continuing government control of the Mt. Carmel Center. (Your readers can
subscribe at by sending an e-mail to [
KORESH_X98-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
]). And of course from time to time I appear outside the gates of the Mt. Carmel
Center, handing out flyers, and telling visitors to beware of the Cover-up Church.
[You can read about the Cover-up Church at: http://holocausts.org/waco/burial/doc/x98_rev.html ]
I live on a small monthly Social Security allowance. Until I was disabled in June 1996 in a motorcycle accident, I was a professional carpet installer. For 15 years I worked as a union member, but in 1985 I started my own business of repair and inspection of existing installations. My ancestors were coal miners in Pennsylvania but I grew up in the city, in Philadelphia. I have a high school diploma and spent a few years studying comparative religion at Temple University. For years I was an intravenous drug user and have spent time in prison on drug-related offenses. I contracted AIDS eleven years ago as a result of my drug use, so I have had bouts of illness.
I came to believe that there must be a God in this world that could forgive me and help me to understand why my life had been filled with such pain and suffering. My life is not a pretty story, but I made a decision to transmute the darkness of my life into light. Now I am "The Watchman" of Mt.Carmel and the protector of the memory of the Martyrs. In this holy war, this Jihad, I have three weapons: my mouth, my hand and my heart.
To be the watchman of something is an important job, but it carries greater significance when it is the ruins of a church where nearly a hundred people were tortured, mutilated and burnt to death. My connection to those people is stronger than it is for most outsiders because I lived at Mt.Carmel when there was no one there, only me and the Martyrs. I spent many hours protecting their honor, I am still protecting them and will forever do so.
Your readers should know that when I first went down to Waco I regarded Clive as my spiritual mentor and I bared my soul to him. Perhaps he will go public with his knowledge after this interview is published in an attempt to discredit me, but I don't care. I think the truth about what Clive Doyle is doing in the present is much more important than the truth about what I have done in the past.
There is something else that is important for you to know about me: I am a Shiite Muslim. I believe in the unseen world. I do not think life is solely made up of the physical and the sensory. I believe in the spiritual universe. Those who would control the world also believe in the power of the unseen. They believe in the power of Satan and use symbols and signs to call up this Satanic power. Many people are blind to this. I am not. I look at symbols and study symbolism.
CV:
What brought you to Waco to study with Clive Doyle?
X98:
In 1993 I saw the Waco coverage on TV. I figured that if the US government
was going to such trouble to destroy David Koresh, he must really have had something
to say. I wanted to find out what that "something" was, so a few years later
when I was able to leave Philadelphia, I went to Waco to study with Clive Doyle.
I thought he was David's disciple and would be able to tell me about David's
work. Nothing could be further from the truth.
I arrived at the Mt. Carmel Center on December 2, 1996. One of the first questions I asked was whether David Koresh believed he was God. Clive told me David never made this claim, and that neither he nor any of the Davidians believed David was God. Rather they believed David was chosen by God not only to be a prophet but to fulfill prophecy. This was important to me. Had they believed David Koresh was God Himself I would have been off in a hurry. God is all knowing and present everywhere, but David, as a human, was not.
In those early days, I'd go to Clive's house on Old Mexia Road every Wednesday night to study the Bible with him. Occasionally other people would come by and join us but mostly it was just Clive and me. A few months later another student, Peter Wagstaff, came all the way from England to join us.
On Saturdays I attended Sabbath meetings with other Davidians. Usually the meetings were held in the private homes of the Davidians. Often it was Sheila Martin's home, sometimes Ophelia Santoyo's, sometimes Catherine Matteson's.
By the way, let's get our terms defined. Clive says he is not the leader of the Branch Davidians. Well, he sure is not the leader of those who followed David Koresh. But Clive walks and talks and quacks like he's the leader. The media calls upon Clive as the spokesman, and he answers. Clive controls the purse and the minds of his followers and he makes the decisions. "I've got control, just don't call me the leader." OK. I'll oblige Clive. I won't call him the leader, I'll call him the substitute leader. The government murdered the real leader of the Branch Davidians and gave us Clive in his place. Clive is the cuckoo's egg in the Branch Davidian nest.
I love books and researching at libraries. Soon after my arrival, Clive put me to work researching the contested ownership of the Mt. Carmel Center property. I dug out the old court cases. Years ago the land was the home of the Tawakoni Indians. They were the soldiers who guarded the priestly caste, the Wacos or "Noble Ones." There was a bountiful artesian well on the property, which became part of a huge Spanish land grant made to Thomas De La Vega. Steve Austin, through trickery, stole the land from De La Vega, and eventually engineered the slaughter of Tawakoni and the Wacos. The land has a fearful and complex history. I will give you an overview.
The history of the Davidians and this property begin with Florence Houteff, the widow of Victor Houteff who founded the Davidian Seventh Day Adventists. Florence bought 914 acres of this land in 1955. In 1959 there were at least 1,000 people living in her Mt. Carmel Center. Florence put in a sewer system — the Davidians relied for water on the same artesian well used by the Tawakonis. You can see the remnants of that system today.
In 1962, Florence Houteff sold off much of the property and went to California. From the middle of the 914 acres, she carved out 77.86 acres, and left the reduced Mt. Carmel Center with 12 sides! Just as new Jerusalem that comes down from Heaven has12 gates (Revelation 21:12), so the Mt. Carmel Center after Florence had 12 sides.
I challenge anybody to show me a property with 12 sides. I have researched property all over the US and haven't found anything like this. Remember, this 12 sided property was carved out of the middle of 914 acres. I think Florence did it that way purposefully for some mystical reason, possibly Masonic. Did you know that the Mt. Carmel Center is on the "Double Eagle" Ranch Road? The Double Eagle is one of the primary symbols of the 33rd degree Masons.
After Florence, Ben Roden, and then Lois Roden, came to power. When Ben died, the Rodens' son, George, became his mother's rival. Eventually Lois declared David Koresh, not George, to be a prophet of God. This resulted in a split in the group. George Roden took control of the land at the Mt. Carmel Center and in 1984, with the help of the sheriff's department, forced David Koresh and his followers out. David and his people went to live in Palestine, Texas. George Roden eventually was sent to jail for a few months for contempt of court. With George temporarily out of the picture, David Koresh paid off the back taxes owing on the Mt. Carmel Center and moved his people back in. I understand a court order stipulated that if David Koresh maintained control of the property for five years, he would own that land, but I was never able to find the court order. As I said, the history is more complex than that, but this will give you a necessary overview.
Bottom line: What I found was that no one, officially, owns that property. Eventually Clive and I met with McLennan County sheriff's deputy Terry Fuller to present my findings.
Besides doing this research, I performed many confidential secretarial tasks for Clive Doyle.
When I first arrived in Waco, Amo Bishop Roden, the common law ex-wife of George Roden, was living on the Mt. Carmel property. Even so, I acted as security officer and groundskeeper for Clive and his supporters. In late January, 1998, the sheriff moved Amo off the property. About two weeks later, on February 15, the Davidians held a formal vote and unanimously decided to appoint me the resident watchman of the Mt. Carmel Center; I moved onto the property that day.
The vote and the appointment were documented, and I sent copies to the McLennan County sheriff's department and the Davidian prisoners. I tried to do things right.
When I first moved onto the Mt. Carmel Center property, I lived in my van. Later I lived in a trailer provided by David Koresh's mother, Bonnie Haldeman. I was at the Mt. Carmel Center day and night. I greeted visitors, friendly and unfriendly, whatever time they came. I insisted all behave respectfully. If a visitor could not be respectful towards the martyrs who died on the hallowed ground beneath their feet, I asked them to leave.
Eventually Clive purchased a trailer and moved onto the Mt. Carmel Center property himself, and I moved into a rental farm house on Old Mexia Road Clive had been living in.
When I was not living on the property, I was there anyway, much of the time, guarding it. I was present one Halloween night when some students from Baylor University in Waco came up to the Mt. Carmel Center, all dressed up in Halloween costumes. They were looking for some fun, some 15 of them — four carloads. I told them they were behaving strangely for Christians — all dressed up for a pagan festival, treading on ground that ran red with the blood of those who had been martyred for their beliefs, ground that ran red with the blood of innocent women and children. They apologized and left.
So on an off, I lived on the Mt. Carmel Center for years. Naturally I saw Clive every day during those times. We had many intense discussions of the Bible.
In September 1999, I denounced Clive for founding the new chapel on the Sabbath. Naturally I was persona non grata after that. I continued to live in Waco until July 2000, when illness forced me to leave to seek medical attention. I went back to Philadelphia briefly, but for next nine months I was under medical care in northern Virginia. I returned to Waco on April 1, 2001.
CV:
When did you give yourself a new name?
X98:
When a person experiences a religious conversion it is called being "born
again." The new convert often changes his name to signify that rebirth.
The Bible is full of such instances. When I left Philadelphia to seek my God I
was born again, so I changed my name.
CV:
OK. Please explain the significance of "X98"? And what is the
significance of the emblem you sometimes wear, the white X on the black background?
X98:
At the height of the fire on April 19 two particular tanks appeared on the
Mt. Carmel Center grounds. Both were flying flags with a white background.
One flag had a red X on the foreground; the other had a black X on the foreground.
"X" of course is an old symbol for Christ, the first letter of the Greek word "Christos." The red X has been used to symbolize the blood of Christ. It can be seen in the flag of Ireland.
Now, the flag with the red X that appeared on the tank: I've been told that this flag is the Alabama state flag, and the tank flying the flag was from the Alabama National Guard. This explanation does not quite make sense. The tank flying the flag was on federal duty, not Alabama duty. And the flag flew in Texas, where Alabama had no jurisdiction. Besides, Texas has all the hardware it would ever need without borrowing from Alabama.
As for the flag with the black X: I have been offered no explanation for that flag. It seems to have no history. The experts I've talked to don't know what to make of it.
But I think we can make sense of it, interpreting the symbols as we already know them. X is a symbol of Christ. Black is a symbol for evil. White is a symbol for good.
This black X on a white background is a flag of the anti-Christ. It symbolizes the triumph of darkness over light, of evil over good.
So I chose to oppose that symbol. I did this by adopting the white X on a black background as my own moniker. That symbolizes the triumph of good over evil.
By the way, at the first showing of "Waco: The Rules of Engagement" on April 18, I asked Michael McNulty about the flag with the black X. He said: "The black X meant the 10th tank battalion or something, but I really don't know. " I thought that was strange. Here we had a guy that was supposed to be making a documentary using visual material and he treats the most outstanding visual effect at the height of the fire so casually. He "sorta knows, but not really." I was convinced that McNulty was a fraud from that point on.
When I questioned Clive about McNulty's ignorance, Clive said he did not trust McNulty either, but then offered the conventional justification for accepting McNulty's lies: McNulty's videos were not perfect, but they were the best we have.
That's not true of course. Linda Thompson's videos were the best we have. They were full of truths. McNulty's videos are the replacements for them, and his are full of lies.
CV:
Well, that takes care of the "X." What about the "98"?
X98:
All during the siege no one seemed to agree on the number of people present in the
Mt. Carmel Center, even though we all know that the place was filled with fiber optics
and listening devices. Shortly after the April 19 fire burned itself out, a
Philadelphia TV station I was listening to reported that 86 Davidians had died.
During the next several days TV and newspapers all over the country were reporting
that same number — "86" — dead. In fact, papers all over the world,
even communist papers, reported "86."
I noticed that number, because the "86" is slang term that means "kill," or "murder." If you have been 86'd, you have been killed or murdered. By the way, that is why the abortion drug is called RU486. The name of the drug asks a question of the public: "Are you for murdering children?"
Later, of course, I found out the number of Davidians who died was not 86. "Eighty-six dead at Waco" had obviously been a signal that the Davidians had been murdered or 86ed. I of course wished to oppose the murders. So I reversed the 86 symbol. The reverse of 86 is 98. Thus "98" is part of my name.
CV:
OK, now the "Andrew"?
X98:
We are all familiar with the flag of Scotland, the Cross of St. Andrew. Andrew
was the first Apostle. He was crucified on a cross that was shaped like an
X. Andrew was tied to that cross for four days, and he hung there, preaching,
and was martyred there, with Christ's name on his lips. St. Andrew is my
exemplar. "Andrew" was the perfect choice.
CV:
Thank you for those explanations. Now let's move into the substance of this
interview. Why do you say Clive is not a follower of David Koresh?
X98:
There are many reasons. But before I talk about them, I want to provide
context and clear up some misconceptions about Clive Doyle's role at the Mt. Carmel
Center under David Koresh.
A number of old-time Davidians have assured me that David Koresh did not trust Clive Doyle and sent him away from the Mt. Carmel Center. During the time David was in charge in Waco, Clive spent years at Odessa, Texas, and in California, where he worked in the roofing business.
Clive not living at the Mt. Carmel Center is a big deal. Devout Branch Davidians desire to be "present," listening to the prophet as he unfolds his prophecies. This truth, heard from the prophet's mouth, is called the "present truth." Ellen G. White, Victor Houteff, Ben Roden, and David Koresh all believed that it was vitally important to witness the "present truth." David went all over the world telling people they had to be there in Waco to hear his revelations as they were happening. The fact that Doyle lived away from the property for years and is now being served up as a Koresh disciple does not ring true.
Clive told me stories that also lead me to believe David Koresh did not respect him. One time when David and his people were living in Palestine, David took Clive into a wooded area and asked him to chop a path for him. David left. Clive expected he would be picked up in a few hours. Instead, David left him there all night. On another occasion, when the group had moved back to the Mt. Carmel Center, David took Clive to Waco, a good 10 miles away ... and left him there to walk back. Clive told me a number of other stories about David slighting him. Sounds to me like David was trying to send him a message.
Copyright, April 19, 2001 — May be reproduced for non-commercial purposes
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Many people who distrust the mainstream media have turned to alternate news sources, some of which are Internet based. Unfortunately, many of these alternate sources of news simply promote an alternate series of lies. These alternate lies are of course dressed up as "exposés." But you can easily tell the phonies from the real thing. The information in the Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum is an acid test.
Remember, since ancient times, inquiries into questionable deaths have started with the bodies of the victims. If your news source won't give you an honest and full account of the forensic information on Waco, or if it does not have a link to the Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum ... your alternate news has failed a fundamental acid test.