The Cuckoo's Egg
Interview with Andrew X98
|"Clive Doyle, a Branch Davidian and survivor of the 1993 standoff between federal authorities and the sect points out on a scale model where he escaped the fire that eventually destroyed the compound, April 17, 2013 in Waco." This 2013 photo of Clive Doyle and caption was published in the Texas Monthly, Jan. 24, 2018 (cached).|
Before Clive came to Mt. Carmel, he was a currency printer for the Australian government. He was the Mt. Carmel printer under Ben, and then Lois, Roden. It was an important position because Ben and Lois Roden relied heavily on mailings to get the word out and to raise funds. Clive apparently liked being important.
Old time Davidian Bob Kendrick told me that David did not trust Clive because Clive was always seeking to "be somebody." This was confirmed by another old-timer, Doug Mitchell. Then Tom Cook, the man who runs the Mt. Carmel website for Clive Doyle and acts as Clive's PR point man, told me that I should not trust Clive. Tom told me Clive had gone to Lois Roden and asked if he could print a tract that he had written. Lois said no, but that Clive defied her and printed it and sent it out anyway, using the Davidian mailing list ...
One moment. When did Tom Cook come on the Davidian scene?
Tom Cook came onto the scene in 1993 when he put up bail for Jesse Amen. Jesse Amen was the man who was arrested after he mysteriously got through the FBI cordon during the siege, camped out with the Davidians, and conveniently left just before the fire only to be arrested by the FBI. Many believe Jesse was an FBI informant.
So how does Tom Cook know about the Roden days?
Tom is Clive's hairdresser and confidant. Clive must have told him about the incident. When Tom spilled the beans to me, he told me not to let Clive know he had told me.
By the way, Tom admits that he is a practicing homosexual and male prostitute, but says that he is trying to overcome his "sickness." I've seen him bringing his male lovers into the Mt. Carmel Center. I am sympathetic to sinners who repent, but if you are a practicing homosexual that means you have not repented. That's another instance of Clive breaking with David. David Koresh would never have appointed a practicing homosexual to a position of trust in the Davidian community. It sends the wrong message about keeping God's commandments.
Strange to say: Once I helped Clive move his house. We were packing his personal effects, and I saw his underwear. Clive wears bikini briefs, silky little things, with flowers and other pretty designs on them. I said, "Hey Clive, what are you doing wearing girls drawers?" He said he wore them because he found he liked the way they felt next to his skin. So I said, "Well, that explains the silk. What about the little rose buds?" Clive had no explanation for them.
That's a puzzler, all right. So then, Tom Cook, Clive's confident, spilled the beans and told you, telling you not to tell Clive he told you. What did you do?
I did not believe Tom's story, so I went to Clive and told him what Tom said. I asked Clive if Tom's story was true. Clive said yes, he had asked Lois if he could print his own tract, Lois said no, Clive did it anyway. He sent it out using the Davidian printing resources and the mailing list.
Clive told me that when David found out, David forbade him from ever printing his own material again. Not only that, but David said there was to be no more printing at the Mt. Carmel Center at all. Period.
Put in other words, David abolished Clive's job. For almost 25 years prior to this incident, Clive had been the official printer. For David to abolish his job on the heels of the humiliation of having his tract squelched must have been tough on Clive.
Shortly after David said "no more printing," the administration building, with all the printing equipment, burned down. A number of Davidians thought Clive was responsible. Whether he did it or not is beside the point. What is significant is that the bad blood between David Koresh and Clive Doyle was no secret.
I mentioned that in 1983 Lois Roden chose David Koresh rather than her own son, George, to succeed her. George, of course, was very bitter towards David Koresh and in 1984 forced him out, like I've said. Clive Doyle told me that during the struggle between George and David, Clive left David's group for a few years. He said he went to live in Waco, and did not even attend Sabbaths. Now recall that Clive has sworn under oath that he believed David Koresh was "God made flesh." Does it sound to you as if Clive Doyle really believed that? Here is "God made flesh" caught in a struggle with his enemy and you leave him.
Clive rejoined the Koreshians after David got control of the Mt. Carmel Center again. I am not sure exactly when Clive returned to live there, but I do know that Clive lived at the Mt. Carmel Center at some point in 1989.
By the way, during the three and a half years I was in Waco, I often saw Clive Doyle socializing with the old supporters of George Roden. He'd sit and talk to them for hours.
But I need to go further back in history to put Clive's role in the group into perspective.
Victor Houteff founded the Davidian Seventh Day Adventists back in the 1930s. The government must have seen him as a big threat. Houteff had a big following all over the world, and a big mailing list which he used to raise money and proselytize. They had their own school and hospital. Houteff printed his own Davidian currency which his followers used in trade among themselves. He was a genuine pacifist. After Pearl Harbor was bombed, he retained the tradition of the old Seventh Day Adventists and refused to endorse conscription. And even worse: Houteff spoke openly about the Jews and the establishment of the state of Israel.
On January 4, 1947, Victor Houteff gave a sermon at the Mt. Carmel chapel called "The Hated Jews of Today Are Not the Admired Jews of Tomorrow." Houteff said:
"In view of the fact that this scripture is now being unfolded, and also the fact that there is but one people, one nation (the descendants of the ancient scribes, priests, and Pharisees who rejected the Lord and who have not even to this day accepted Him, that are hardly desired anywhere in the world) that is now doing all she [Judea] can to gather together in Palestine -- in view of all this, the present-day Jews are that undesired nation. Upon her, therefore, the Lord's anger is to fall if she continues to deny Christ. Yes, the universally hated Jew is the only nation that has been scattered throughout the Gentile world, and is the only one that is now gathering together in Palestine." http://www.shepherds-rod.org/TGvol1/1tg22.htm
Houteff went on to say, in effect, that the Jews were being gathered in one place so God could kill them more conveniently. That's heavy stuff. Given the control the Jews already had over America at that time, given Houteff's anti-conscription stand, his issuing of private currency -- given all these things, you can bet Uncle Sam had an interest in infiltrating and watching him and his people.
The government actually provided proof of that. The Treasury Report on Waco contains a copy of early surveillance photos of the Mt. Carmel Center, taken before the big house we saw on TV in 1993 was built. You have those pictures in the Museum:
OK, but wait a moment. Let's get back to Houteff, Israel, and David Koresh. Didn't the Davidian flag we saw in 1993 have a Star of David on the foreground? The Newsweek diagram of May 3, 1993, shows the Star of David on the Davidian flag.
Would not the Star of David suggest Koresh was pro-Israel or even a Zionist?
I can't help what lies Newsweek publishes. There was no Star of David on the Davidian flag. What you saw on the Davidian flag that flew during the siege was a six-winged fiery flying serpent. You can read about the fiery flying serpent in Isaiah 14:29 and 30:6. The very first sermon David delivered after Lois Roden identified him as a prophet of God was on the subject of the fiery flying serpent.
By the way, that's another of David's teachings Clive is suppressing. He has David's sermon on the fiery flying serpent. I asked him for years if I could listen to it and he refused to allow me.
Anyway, the six wings of the fiery flying serpent on the Davidian flag were significant because David believed he was fulfilling the Fifth Seal so the Sixth Seal could become a reality. One of the martyrs, the late Julliete Martinez, sewed the flying fiery serpent flag that flew during the siege. Julliete's mother, Ophelia Santoyo, told me this. No, there was no Star of David on the Davidian flag.
The skull of a two-year old child was found in the concrete room. The autopsy photo shows the skull with a Star of David near it. The two-year old victim has never been identified. Did Clive Doyle ever mention a missing two-year old?
No. As far as I know, there is no explanation for that skull. Nor have I ever heard that any of the Davidians wore a Star of David. The Star of David is a political symbol, not a religious one; it is not Biblical and has nothing to do with King David of the Old Testament.
The Star of David was originally the emblem of David al-Roy, a Messianic 12th Century Khazar Jew who dreamt about the conquest of Palestine and raised an army for that purpose. You will remember that Khazaria lay between the Caspian and Black Seas. The Khazars converted to Judaism in the 8th Century; their descendants, the European Jews, falsely claim to be the descendants of the ancient Hebrews. So David al-Roy's Star of David (al-Roy) became the emblem of the Jewish Crusades, particularly the Zionist holy mission to conquer Palestine for Judaism. You can read about this history in Arthur Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe."
The only Israeli among the Davidian dead was Pablo Cohen, and as he was (allegedly) a follower of David Koresh, he could not have been "Jewish." With his focus on the Book of Revelations, David was firmly planted in the New Testament. The Jews reject the New Testament.
In the Museum you raise the possibility that some of the bodies and body parts found in the concrete room may not belong to Davidians at all. Maybe the two-year old's skull is one of those. After all, how likely is it that the Davidians would forget a two-year old child that belonged to the community?
If you read other autopsy reports, you will notice detailed records of the effects found around the remains -- bullets, clothing, shoes, etc . The autopsy report of Mt. Carmel 51a, however, makes no mention of the Star of David being found near the skull at the site of recovery. In fact, the autopsy report clearly says: "The remains are limited to a skull with articulated mandible."
If I had to guess, I would say that the Star of David was placed next to the skull in the mortuary, like a prop, before the photo was taken. Both the skull and the Star of David may have been signatures left by the killers, of course. Gangland and ritualistic murderers often leave such signatures.
Well, I can assure you David Koresh was no Zionist or lover of Israel. As a Muslim, that was one of the first things I checked out when I arrived. I would have been out the door in a hurry if David was a Zionist. Clive told me David had traveled to Israel, yes, but he hated it and thought it was "filthy." I heard Clive quote David many times, talking about Israel, calling it "filthy."
But now you have brought up the subject of the autopsy photos. At one point during my 1996-2000 stay in Waco, I moved into the rental farm house in Mexia Road, the one Clive used to live in. For a while Clive's phone remained connected. In August, 1999, a man called my house wanting to speak to Clive. The Danforth investigation was in the news then, and the fellow told me he was interested in making money on the deal -- everyone else was, he said. The man's name was Don Petty and he appears in "Waco: The Rules of Engagement."
Petty told me he had some photographs he wanted to sell to the "right person," and he thought Clive might be that person. I told Clive the coroners' photographer wanted to meet with him. Clive agreed, and we both went up to Dallas to see him.
Clive and I spent four to five hours with Petty. We met in the office of an attorney who was helping him sell the photos. There was a large table in the office. The autopsy photographs were stored in a series of boxes, approximately 2 feet by 2 feet, some on top of the table, some on the floor.
Clive and I saw thousands of photos, including the photo of Shari, Clive's daughter. The attitude of the photographer was nonchalant, and even jovial, despite the horrific nature of the material. He said that he had shown the photos to his friends and knew they would be worth something some day. Throughout, Clive did not react.
Then Petty showed us a single sheet on which there were four photos. Three photos showed human remains, burnt to a crisp. The fourth photo showed a table setting, with a fork, a knife, and a plate. On the plate was some burnt meat and potatoes. The implication was that the burnt meat was Davidian remains served up as a meal.
"What is this," I demanded. Petty said the table setting and meal was set up as a joke between him and some of the guys. I jumped up on my feet and threw the picture across the table at him. I was furious about it. "This is funny? This is what you call a joke?" I felt like hitting him but did not. Clive was deadpan throughout. His face revealed no emotion.
Clive said nothing?
That's right. On the way home I continued to express my outrage, and then Clive said he was sorry he did not react to the photo when he saw it. What kind of a person would make a joke like that to rub it in a father's face? OK, I don't know if Petty was the same person who put the Star of David prop next to the anonymous little skull, but you can see from this story the dregs that worked for the Tarrant County Medical Examiner's office.
Now lets get back to Victor Houteff ...
OK. Victor Houteff died in 1955, leaving behind his widow Florence. Ben and Lois Roden were among the flock at that time. In 1959 a major prophecy of Florence's failed. In 1962 she sold off much of the property and left with the money. A few months later, Clive Doyle arrived. Ben Roden was now in charge of the Mt. Carmel Center. Roden appointed Clive as the official Mt. Carmel printer -- a natural enough move, considering Clive's background as currency printer for Australia.
Clive printed the Center's religious tracts and of course had open access to the Davidian mailing list. Any government agent would give his eye teeth for that information. Spooks are always trying to find out who is talking to who. By the way, I noticed in my almost four years with Clive: He is an obsessive keeper of lists. He keeps a list of those who visit the Mt. Carmel Center. He keeps lists of people who contribute money ...
You have told us how David felt about Clive. But what of Clive's regard for David?
Old time Davidian Doug Mitchell told me Clive hated David Koresh. Being a newcomer at the time, I told Doug that his statement was ridiculous. Then Doug told me this story: In 1989 David, already married to Rachel, announced to a gathering of Branch Davidians that he intended to take additional wives -- and that Clive Doyle's 14-year old daughter, Karen, was his first choice. Doug was there and witnessed it. Apparently David had not given Clive any prior notice of his intention. "You should have seen Clive's face. Clive hated David Koresh."
How much weight do you place in what Doug Mitchell has to say about Clive Doyle? I understand that Doug Mitchell is one of the claimants to the Mt. Carmel property and is Clive Doyle's opponent.
According to the by-laws of the Branch Davidians, the owner of the property is the Branch Davidian prophet. Doug Mitchell claims to be a prophet. Clive Doyle makes no claim to being a prophet, and no Branch Davidian survivor accepts Clive as a prophet. So Doug Mitchell does not gain anything by inventing stories about Clive. Clive is already disqualified from ownership by the Branch Davidian by laws.
On the other hand, Rita Riddle lived in the Mt. Carmel Center with her 17-year old daughter Misty Ferguson. Rita told Waco researcher Ken Fawcett that David Koresh did not sleep with other women, that he was not sleeping with her or Misty. Sandy Connizzo, the mother of Mike Schroeder, believes her grandson Bryan is truly the child of her son Mike (not David Koresh). Stanley Sylvia, husband of Lorraine Sylvia, filed suit for damages for the death of his one-year old daughter, Hollywood. So here we have Stanley claiming Lorraine's child was his, not David Koresh's. These situations would argue for questioning the stories of Koresh's sexual practices.
Well, I did not know David Koresh and wasn't living at the Mt. Carmel Center then, so I can only tell you what I learned during the time I was Clive's student. Because I have no information to the contrary, I believe what Doug Mitchell told me is true: that David announced he was taking other wives and did so.
Many people feel revulsion when they hear about David's multiple and young wives, but if they are Bible believers, I can't see why they would be shocked. The ancient Hebrews were often polygamous. They had unorthodox sex lives according to today's standards.
Abraham had many wives. One was his half-sister, Sarah. (Gen. 20:12.) Twice he lent out the beautiful Sarah to other men to save his life. (Gen. 12: 11-15, Gen. 20:2). His son Isaac also lent his wife out. (Gen.26:6-9).
All of the 12 Patriarchs had many wives as did many of the prophets.
God commands Hosea to marry a whore! After the priests kill his son Jezereel (Seed of God) or in other words The Son of God, he is instructed to take yet another wife of whoredom. The accounts can be found in Hosea 1:2-3 and 3:1-3.
Isaiah was told to make a child with a woman who was a prophetess, while the act of "making" the baby was witnessed by Uriah the priest and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah (Isa. 8:2,3.). And in another place in the same book Isaiah was told to take off all of his clothes and walk naked in Jerusalem for three years preaching (Isa 20:2).
Polygamy was practiced by Job 27:15; Lamech, Genesis 4:19; Abraham, Genesis 16; Esau, Genesis 26:34; 28:9; Jacob, Genesis 29:30; Ashur, Chronicles 4:5; Gideon, Judges 8:30; Elkanah, 1 Samuel 1:2; David, 1 Samuel 25:39-44; 2 Samuel 3:2-5; 5:13; 1 Chronicles 14:3; Solomon, 1 Kings 11:1-8; Rehoboam, 2 Chronicles 11:18-23; Abijah, 2 Chronicles 13:21; Jehoram, 2 Chronicles 21:14; Joash, 2 Chronicles 24:3; Ahab, 2 Kings 10; Jehoiachin, 2 Kings 24:15; Belshazzar, Daniel 5:2 ...
So why the squeamishness about David Koresh?
Well, put like that, I can't imagine why.
Now I want to give you some more information that might help explain Clive's reaction to David taking Karen. Clive is illegitimate. His elderly mom, Edna, must have had a rough, rough time in life. Being an unmarried mother in Australia 50 - 60 years ago must have been hard. I totally sympathize with that. Edna is bitter about the man-woman relationship. In the years I lived among the Davidians, I heard Edna repeatedly throwing cold water on any interest a Davidian woman might have expressed in a man. The news that Karen was to be in the House of David must have gone over like a lead balloon.
I suspect Doyle arrived at the Mt. Carmel Center in 1962 as an undercover agent and has been undercover agent ever since. I suspect David Koresh spotted him. That may have been why David treated him the way he did. David was testing, and inviting Clive to leave or to repent.
David Koresh took his two daughters, first Karen, then Shari, as wives. Why would Clive put up with it? When I put the question to him, "Clive, why did you put up with it?" Clive would say he did so because he believed David was a prophet. But obviously Clive did not, and does not, believe in David.
David Koresh's announcement that he would be taking multiple wives was followed by the rebuilding of the Mt. Carmel Center. The individual cottages were taken down and a large house was built with separate men's and women's quarters. Clive was not even there when that big house we saw on TV in 1993 was built.
Do you know when Clive returned to the Mt. Carmel Center -- the house we saw in 1993?
I can't give you an exact date, but supposedly he returned to live there shortly before the February 28 raid. Now I doubt even this. Clive did not know many of the people who lived and died at the Mt. Carmel Center between February 28 and April 19. I know this because when I went down there in 1996, I decided I wanted to write short biographies on each of the martyrs. So naturally I started asking Clive about the people. Time and time again Clive said: "I did not know him/her." One of the Davidians who lived there told me she scarcely remembered Clive being at the Mt. Carmel Center. "I rarely saw him, and when he was there, he hardly spoke to anyone," she said.
Yes, I now wonder if Clive was at Mt. Carmel during the siege. After years of studying with Clive, listening to every negotiation tape he had and talking to other Davidians, I began to ask these questions out loud: Why did I not hear Clive's voice on any of the negotiation tapes? If Clive was so close to David, why was he not a spokesmen during the siege?
Then, suddenly, years after I arrived and months after I publicly condemned Clive for founding the Cover-up Church on the Sabbath, Peter Wagstaff dropped by my house and handed me a new negotiation tape. You might remember that Peter is Clive's Bible student from England who arrived in Waco a few months after I did. Peter goes back and forth from England, staying in Waco a few months at a time. He usually returns each year for the memorial.
This new negotiation tape that Peter dropped off had Clive's voice on it. The FBI negotiator is talking with Steve Schneider and tells Steve that Clive's daughter Karen wants to talk to Clive. Steve says that he has Clive right here. Then the negotiator asks Clive how is it going, are you being forced to stay? Clive says "No, no one is being forced to stay in here." Then Clive asks: "Does my daughter want to talk to me?" The negotiator says, "No, she just wants to know if everything is OK."
I've often questioned whether the voices on the tapes were those of the actual Davidians. Sometimes the voices on the tapes sound idiotic, as if they are baby-talking the Bible. Other times the voices give the impression the speaker had real command over the material. It's no big deal to impersonate a voice. And they would have access to Clive's voice whenever they wanted to, no problem.
So either Peter or Clive just found this tape kicking around in the attic, or they had it made up in the lab just for me and any others who might come along and ask the same common-sense question. Either way, it was important for them to get that tape to me. I was already condemning Clive. I wonder why he cared enough to send me that tape?
Here's another thing that makes me wonder if Clive was actually at Mt. Carmel during the siege. I asked Clive about David's sermons during the siege. I thought surely they must be terrific, considering the revelations David was having about the Sixth Seal. Talk about "present truth" -- God must have been really talking to them. But Clive said he couldn't remember any of David's sermons during the siege. Clive explained this by saying: "David said we'd forget everything." Funny that Clive did not forget that statement, but forgot the sermons ...
From the beginning I questioned Clive about Livingston Fagan. David sent Livingston out on March 23. Ask Clive why David sent Livingston out, and Clive will tell you he doesn't know. Yet David is on record saying he sent Livingston out to be his spokesman. There were many news reports to that effect during the siege and since.
I'd remind Clive what David said about Livingston, but the next time the subject came up Clive would again say he did not know why David sent Livingston out. Finally I started handing out Livingston's writings and Clive stopped me, saying I would cause confusion. So I was shut down, at least until I got a computer. Then I began to talk about Livingston Fagan on line. Suddenly things changed at the Mt. Carmel website. Suddenly they featured Livingston's writings, but the quotes were taken out of context. They made Livingston look crazy. They also never included any of Livingston's commentary about electro-chemical or electro-magnetic streams of consciousness, a theme David was working on.
But my point is this: It is hard to imagine that Clive was living inside during the siege and had no clue why David sent Livingston out.
Livingston is very smart -- he has advanced degrees and came from England with his mother and wife and children to study with David. Livingston unselfishly left the Mt. Carmel Center to serve David, and then lost his entire family in the catastrophe. He is still in prison serving his 40 year prison term. He's not cooperating with the system as the others are.
Then there is the story Clive told under oath during the Davidian civil suits. The Associated Press ran a story about that testimony on June 29, 2000.
Clive said that, during the fire, he tried to save his pet dog, Brownie, three times, each time throwing it out of a hole in the burning building. But he never attempted to rescue his own daughter Shari. I don't understand that.
Firemen are trained to handle fathers and mothers who try to run into a burning house to rescue their children. Now here's a father not running in, but running out, careful to rescue his doggie, but not worrying about his daughter. "Yeah, my daughter is in the burning building, but never mind. I'm getting out, and so is my dog." Clive had plenty of time to find Shari.
Before his March 3 radio address, David told the Davidians that he wanted them to leave the Mt. Carmel Center. He issued instructions on how that was to be done. Clive told me that he and Shari decided they were not going to follow David's instructions. They were afraid they might be shot if they did. So they planned to hide behind a barrel until they knew it was safe to come out.
If Clive and Shari were close enough to get together and plan to save their lives in March, they were close enough to get together and plan to save their lives in April. On April 19 they were given plenty of notice that the end was coming. Clive says that Shari stayed with David that morning, leading us to believe she was devoted to him. But she showed no such devotion just a few weeks earlier in March, when she and Clive planned to disobey David and hide behind the barrel.
Sorry, none of this makes sense. I don't think a father acts like that. I'd say, considering everything, Clive was not in the fire on April 19. Nor do I believe his daughter was in the fire.
It is quite possible of course that Shari -- and her children, if she had any -- is living in safety under the witness protection program. That might be part of the deal, Clive's payoff for doing what he is doing.
For sure, Clive is not what he seems and somewhere there is an explanation. Here's another odd thing. Clive says he got out of the burning building by going through a hole in the wall of that chapel. The chapel is where Clive says he last saw his friend, Wayne Martin. Clive says Wayne walked into the chapel, took his gas mask off, and sat down. According to Clive, Clive asked Wayne, "What do we do," and Wayne said "Just pray."
But Clive did not "just pray." He got out through a hole in the very structure he was sharing with Wayne. Why didn't he say to Wayne, "Hey, Wayne, here's a way out." No, the story smells like old fish. Old Australian fish.
Continued in Part 3
The issue of "Davidian survivors" is fraught with questions, as told these chapters of the Museum: